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Get Over Yourself and Pay for Media with Jay Jay

Mar 08, 2023

Jay Jay is tired of people thinking they just deserve media attention.

A former magician who now helps personal brands become seen as the number one in their industry, he's also tired of publicists overpromising and underdelivering.

And he has good reason to be tired of it: Jay is excellent at guaranteeing people media attention—in publications like Forbes, LA Weekly and Ocean Drive, and even Maxim, WWD and Us Weekly.

In this episode, he broke down why media attention matters, how it should be used and how authors seeking PR need to stop focusing on the wrong things.


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Anna: Jay, thank you so much for being here.

Jay: Yeah, we'll have firstly happy Presidents Day. I woke up this morning. And I was like, there's an energy today. It's different than the guy says in the, in the condo is like, it's Presidents Day. I'm like, yeah, I need a break from this guy anyway, so it's all good.

Anna: I will say that when you don't have kids, things like Presidents Day is just like, you decide to go to the bank, and it's closed. And you're like, what? I didn't know, what!

Jay: Actually it's great because the office is super quiet. And it's like, I'm such an energy guy. I know everybody says that. But my life has been energy for the last 34 years on this planet. So it's calm today, like my phone’s not blowing up. It’s like, I'm calm, nice. Nice feeling for a Monday.

Anna: So you were just saying something that I found so fascinating. And I don't know, if you, like my background is, I come from traditional media. I come from the world where if you came up to me, and you said, we can pay $10,000 to get this story placed there, I should have like, tried to push you off a bridge. And I have woken up. Well, I woke up to a couple of things. I basically stopped being a broke journalist, and became a successful entrepreneur. Because I, I, I just realized it was all such lies anyway. But you know what, let me stop talking and you tell me what you were saying before.

Jay: Well, you know, just to come back to the, to like the backstory, I was a broke entertainer for most of my life. So I was a famous magician, who was very well known all over the world, but I was broke. I was super talented. I was really charismatic. I had the best equipment. I had the best show reel, the best website, but something wasn't working. And I think part of that pain and problem that I had was my ego. I felt that I'm really good and people should just know me. And people should just give me opportunities. And obviously, I would see other people who weren't as talented or good-looking or as well spoken, get all these opportunities. And I'm like, why them and not me? And that took me a long time to get out of, I call it fairy land or Disneyland, of like, the reality is, the reality of like making it in whatever your expertise you're in, you have to use money. And you have to use things that we're not told, because we want to believe that we're just great. And we're a princess, and everybody should just give it to us. And now that I'm heavily involved, just like you in the media, I mean I run a personal branding agency, we have a PR firm. I've seen the darkness of, and the darkness and the brutality of this world. And it's very, the illusion gets broken very quickly for you. If you wanted me to tell you of like, how did people, things get done? It isn't because they were good. Or they deserved it. And that's what I'm going to say. The Hollywood is not what you think it is. And a lot of people, especially entrepreneurs in this digital space, don't want to know the truth. And they're in trouble because they don't, they allow the ego to take over.


Anna: Well, interesting. What do you mean, they don't want to know the truth?

Jay: Because it hurts too much.

Anna: What's, so what’s true?

Jay: The truth, the reality, the reality of actually, how to actually take themselves and their expertise and their brand to the next level.

Anna: Right.

Jay: And they're, they're like, in my opinion, they're like two kind of truths, is the reality of like, maybe they aren't as good as they say they are, right? That like not it, not that great, or their marketing isn't that good. Or they haven't allowed to just go by I have to do things that I didn't think I have to do. And I have to just go and do it. But they sit sometimes in this highchair of life, of like, well, I made it in the 90s. Like that's not how it works anymore. I made it in the 2015, 2019. Yeah, it's 2023 now.

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: So I think a lot of people, it's really, it's hard to and as I said, I'm such an energetic person, and I sometimes wish I was more of a Leo, right? Because I could be like that, but I'm so empathetic. I'm like I feel it, and I was like I gotta tell you something, you're not gonna like this. Like that, that ain't how it works anymore.

Anna: Well, it’s interesting, because when I first, you know, I came from media. I worked at People and Us Weekly and Premiere and Playboy and all those places and it was all quote, you know, earned media. However, there was this pure company, it still exists, PMK. It’s like where all the biggest celebrities are. If you got PMK, it didn't matter how random you were. If you were willing to pay PMK 50 grand a month, they could get you anywhere. Now somehow that is considered completely honorable. However, if you were going to just directly pay that publication $50,000 to put you on the cover that is, quote, immoral. And that is where I started to hit my head against the wall. Because it's just the honest version of what's been happening this entire time. Correct?

Jay: It's the smokescreen. It's the magic. It's the, it's the illusion. That is what I came from. It's what you want the world to see. But in the reality, there's another side of it. But no one wants to, no one wants to tell the truth because the truth is not sexy. You want to be like, hey, I deserved it. They were giving it to me. No, you got three people on firms on retainers, that you pay five figures a month to, they’re doing something and you just get given it, now you feel why deserve that. No, they probably did things because they wanted to get paid the next month. But conversations like I have no ego because I came from entertainment. So like, you can't tell me something now for me like, oh my gosh, I'm hurt. It’s more, okay, my biggest thing is like, do you know deep down do you deserve it? Like if we can get you to the table, as they call it, can you close? Can you deliver, right? Like if you're a musician, if you're a speaker and I get you on a TEDx stage, however, we get you there, you better like close it off because your character and your content and your talent. You can't buy that.

Anna: Right, right.

Jay: So that's, that's how I like to, to frame it up now. Like, who cares on, why do we care on how we get there?

Anna: Right.

Jay: Like, if you ask me like, okay, like, let me ask you this, like, what's your favorite food?

Anna: Chicken.

Jay: Chicken? Okay, what's your favorite restaurant?

Anna: Oh, so hard to say? Quick, why am I drawing a blank?

Jay: Okay, like, well give me give or give me a place that you'd like, oh, my gosh, that was one of the best meals around the world or in America that you've been to.

Anna: There, I, okay, you know what, I'm terrible at this game. Like don't do, give me another thing, not restaurants because this always happens when people…

Jay: So, just think like, think of a really amazing meal. Right?

Anna: Right.

Jay: Okay, when you have that meal, and they bring it to you and it's amazing, do you say hey, was the chef black or is he Mexican? You don't say stupid stuff like that. You don't care because you're paying for the outcome of the dish.

Anna: Right.

Jay: You don't care whether they put the potatoes in the water for three minutes, or a minute and a half? And you, you don't need to know because that's the magic of the outcome. You don't go to the chef, hey what's the exact ingredient? Hey, that's his trick. Yeah, I think the reason I'm playing this game with you is because a lot of times it's like, why do we care? Like, it's because it's, it's about this feeling of like, oh, like you worked hard for it. I'm like, I got the outcome. Now, how we got there, it's whatever you think is right, like who decides what's right and what's wrong.

Anna: So let's describe what we're talking about. I'll have said in the intro, but basically, we're talking about guaranteed media placement. And we're talking about rather than going and pitching a publication, actually exchanging money in order to get somebody coverage in a publication or on a TV show, right? Is that, is that how you would phrase it too or differently?

Jay: Yeah, well just to give a context. So like, I pay PR firms, five figures a month before I paid, I paid other people to do certain jobs. And I'm like, well, if I can pay this firm to do it, or I can pay someone else, and they can guarantee it, or they can have really strong deliverables. I don't care who gets me there. I need this for a specific reason. And I'm going to use this currency of money because that's the best way to get something. Better than a high five, or a favor, or I owe you. IOUs never work in PR by the way. People will say, I’ll owe you one. No, we're not doing IOUs not from his client point of view, Anna, but like I have other journalists like, hey, can you help me get them into here and I owe you one. I'm like, nah, I don't want to do that because it's never fair. Like, you have a great contact at something that I can't, it's like, okay, so the context of what we were speaking about is people have problems of paying for media where they want to feel like they deserve from an organic point of view. But at the end of the day, you're, the reason you're doing this is to get more clients, more cash flow, more exposure, no one cares, hey, did they pay for that article? Or are they in the article like, they just think that they see you with the credibility. Now, obviously if it says sponsored, and all this stuff, that's different problems. So that's kind of the context we're talking about. And now I run this agency, helping people get to the next level of their personal brand, right? Doctor, lawyer, plastic surgeon, author, whatever. They want to be more known. And we have tools to help them get there. And they've been so hurt by other firms that over promise, under deliver, don't hit deliverables. I’m like, now you can pay money to have the deliverables. And let's work backwards. And let's come up from like a holistic approach. Like if we get you there, okay, what else can we do to like enhance the media, enhance the leverage of the, of the publication?

Anna: So what are some publications that you can get people in? I know there's a million. Tell me the biggest ones.

Jay: Yeah. So that we had a, we have a great relationship with Right, we have a great relationship with Forbes. Forbes has, here's a little fun, little insider info: They, Forbes, I will just say it. So Forbes Monaco lost their license recently. And that was a big call, Forbes Monaco. Like, Monaco is Monaco. And the reason why is because people were getting in these, this is the, this is the dark side of the sometimes paying to get to the front of the queue, is because not everyone deserves to be in the front of the queue. And sometimes when it comes to money [inaudible], here's money for a certain transaction, just because you can, doesn't mean they deserve it. Working, we're getting in these publications, and it was tarnishing the brand of Forbes and they realize this and like, that's it, you lose your license. Because obviously people are getting into these, these articles when they shouldn't be. So we've got some right relationships with some, with some high-end contributors and publishers, and at the end of the day, whether I know them and whether I've spent five grand on lunches over the last year with them. Or, and then they do me a favor, or I give them a gift, or I pay them money. Like it's just they're doing me a favor, and I'm using something to help them do that. So yeah, I don't want to go around too much about this. But it's like, it's just I think, to the, to the outcome that everybody's listening is what will, let's get you to the goal faster like, Anna you said this to me on our call, like you said, Jay I like your speed. Like, I want to get there as fast as possible. Because I know there's going to be another whole bridge to get across, faster get to that bridge, we get into the next bridge. And I think now Anna, when it comes to like online, its attention is a huge problem, right? Like everyone's like got a million things going on. So how fast can I get to the goal? And what are you willing to do to get there? And how much money are you willing to pay? And that's what it comes down to. And I don't allow to buy into the ego of like, well, this, that doesn't matter. No one cares. No one cares.

Anna: So if Forbes Monaco lost their license for paid media placement, how is that different, that, I think I'm confused? They lost their license because the wrong people were paying to be in there?

Jay: Yeah, well, I think it was a bit of both. I don't think it was just because people were paying because I think the, a lot of people were getting in the publication that didn't deserve to get in there. So the brand was tarnished. The, the image was tarnished a little bit.

Anna: How do, who determines whether or not that they can, if anybody can come and pay who determines who's worthy?

Jay: The, well depending on the accessibility of the contributor of you know, when you buy a license for let's say, Forbes, obviously you run it and you have the ability, probably run to the guy when it's, I don't know the guidelines, but maybe, I don't know you can have 100 writers, and those writers have to do a minimum of two contributions every month. So cool, they just do contract, but obviously all these people are getting in the article and you need volume because you need to build Forbes, you need to build the, the brand. Obviously, the head team said we don't like what we see you don't get to renew it so that and the same thing with television as well. Like television is more nastier than press in the publication world.  TVs can be can be more worse because it's, there's a lot of variables to a TV. You've got the producer, you've got the EP, then you've got the cameraman, then you've got the journalists. There's a lot of people on that field. And a lot of people can get in trouble if it's not done the right way, like you ever watch TV Anna, and you ever see something like that story doesn't make sense? Or like, something doesn't add up here. Like, why would they talk? There's, there’s plays behind the play. So, yeah.

Anna: So, if for somebody listening says, okay, I want to be in Forbes, I want to be on TV, how do I know if I'm worthy? What is that process? And also, I'd love to hear about publications, in addition to Forbes, other publications that you help people get in.

Jay: Yes. So, so look, you know, the, it's a great question. So someone comes to me well Jay, if everyone can pay, right, that ruins the whole point of like, you know, great people getting in. You're 100%, right. However, I'm the, I'm the, the gatekeeper.

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: I'm the soldier. I mean, I'm the security guy. Like, here's the club, not everybody can come through. What are you wearing? And how do you look? What do you sound like? I’m the same thing, I have the accessibility to these large media outlets, TV press, podcasting influences, different books. I've got the people to help us do that. But that doesn't mean you deserve just to get in because you're using money. Money is just to get my attention and to put you to the front of the queue. That's, and then obviously, if we feel like you're a good fit, because I have to respect the relationships on everybody else. Hey, okay. That's how it works. It's just like going to Disneyland. I went to Disneyland once and like, hey, it's 97, 127 bucks, or it's 797 or something like that but you get like VIP breakfast, lunch and snacks. Plus, we take you to the front of the queue. I'm like sign me up for that. He took me right to the front of the ride. Yeah, I’m like, no way. I was like, this is what I'm talking about.

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: And I had a great time. And everyone was cool. So yeah, so I think to your, to your question, that's, that's how we make sure we, we approve the people first. And then with, in regards to other publications. Yeah, we have access to all different ones from SEO publications to ones that when you google someone's name, it's going to come up on Google. So it's really great for your domain ranking. That's great for anyone listening because most people have no digital presence. They have a very, like Anna, you have a great digital presence. You put your name in, bam, TV, prep, like you, you are, that is how people should be. But most people have no articles, no good website, no good social. So that's, that's one strategy for press. Then we do some kind of like, national tier stuff. So could be something like a Chicago Journal, or it could be something where it's more like, oh, I've heard that before. And then you've got the big boys, the globals like Forbes, Entrepreneur, Huffington Post. Like you've got different ones that we either have access to, or we know the right people to go at least, and pitch and they will take our email first.

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: That's an upgrade vantage because you get 500 emails a day. Be like, delete, delete, delete, delete, oh, Janice, hi Janice. That's not gonna work, Janice, but come next week, like, right, you didn't know, you know what you journalists have to go through every day. I've seen it. I'm like, show me, they're like 600 unread emails. I'm like, my gosh. I'm like, how does someone get through to you? And they're like, not like this. Right?

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: You build a relationship.

Anna: And so, but, but truly, I mean, you have gotten clients on the Today Show, I think you've gotten them on Lewis Howes’ show like, right?

Jay: I hadn't I haven't personally done the Today Show. I haven’t, but my partners have. So in a way, yes. The, the magic though, or the reality, reality though? And Lewis Howes. Yes, Lewis Howes has these big people like we all, we all sort of work together and our, in our teams. The biggest thing is a lot of people think though Anna, once you get on this show, you just sit back and do nothing. And that is the biggest problem. And I think that's when most PR firms struggle, and most marketing firms struggle because they don't teach people how to leverage their results.

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: Like I've seen it firsthand. I had a partner, partner, that got someone on the Today Show. They had a four-minute bit, really good spot. Nothing happened. Nothing happened from the, they got a little bit of website increase. It was good, but it could have been better. But that's not up to your control. The host wasn’t in a good mood that day, they didn’t vibe together, the cameraman didn't show the product as long as I was like, they, they didn't really give it as much, like airtime. It was a rushed piece. That lady I know spent a lot of money with a firm, right, with a firm so she didn't pay for it, with a firm, over six figures in a year. That was their big win. And she didn't get the result. Yeah, like how do you think that teels, you’re six figures in the hole, you spent 10 months on a retainer to get a win. The PR firm is happy because they got your win. You're thinking you're gonna kill it because the outcome is to sell your product. Nothing happened. This is a huge problem. This is a massive problem in, in the, so I try and like help people like, hey, we can get you these things. But what is the plan, like before, during, after to leverage it? Because one television show, one Forbes article, one influence on one podcast with Anna isn't going to cut it. It's everything. And I think a lot of people haven't been told the truth behind you.

Anna: And so what should somebody do? What should that person who had that great TV show appearance have done? She should have taken the clip and pitched it to 10 more big shows? Right?

Jay: 100%, yes. So you know, if you're working with a firm right now, or if you know that something's coming out in the next two weeks? Like, you should be thinking, okay, what can we do pre, during, and after, to maximize this exposure? The biggest one that I tell people is like, send an email blast, even if you have four emails. Doesn't matter. Like send, hey, I'm going to be on the Today Show. Hey, I'm coming out in Forbes next week, get them excited about new things coming for you. The moment it comes out, the same day, you should be throwing it on your social media. Social media, website, sending another email blast out. Then the other big thing you should be doing is taking that media and sending it to all your old prospects who said no.

Anna: Yes.

Jay: Because they'll be like, I've done this multiple times, or TV shows or go on TV show. Hey, John, check out my last TV show, when can we speak again? Yeah, let's have another conversation, boom. So the TV show that I paid 5,000 for, made me 30,000, but because I had to get it in front of the guy ready to give me the money. When most people would be like Anna, I'm on a TV show. Nothing happened. Of course it didn’t happen. How do you, it's how do you use this kind of new, new claim to fame that you have?

Anna: I mean, that's exactly what it is with a book. You can have a book that looks nice on your bookshelf, or you can have a book that transforms your life. And it's literally the difference is how you can have the book that's just sitting in your bookshelf could be a better book. But it doesn't matter if you don't go talk about it. You don't go send it to ideal prospects. If you don't go do something with it. It doesn't matter.

Jay: Anna, let me ask you this. When did the idea of people writing a book just thinking that's it? Like who gave us this idea? Like was that, is that just general marketing? Like you did a book, I'm good. Like who, who said that you can just write a book and just let it be? Who approved this?

Anna: I will say, as somebody who was around back when traditional publishing worked, and when you could make a great living from books. I was at a unique juncture. Because my first book came out in 2007. It was still possible. I was wined and dined at Michaels, I sold the movie rights for a lot of money, it was like this whole thing. And then when the recession hit, it just changed. And it became impossible for authors to make a living. And then entrepreneurs were very savvy and saw oh, you don't need to make the living from the sales. You make it from everything else. So, so I do think that there is in our society, this idea about art and commerce should not meet. There's something tacky about like, wanting to make money off of an art. You know, it's such BS.

Jay: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah. I got, I got drilled when I was a magician, people like how could you teach magic tricks on my, on YouTube? That's a disgrace to the community. I said, I ain't doing this for the community. I'm doing this because people want to have a good time. Like, I'm not doing it for you. But I get it. It's people, it's we call it, we call it sell out. That's what it is, you sell out. Like, you know. Singers? Oh you sold out? You just copied people's covers? I'm like, who are you listening to? Like, and I'll tell you firsthand, too, like, I have a soft spot for artists because I was one, right. And I still am but I see, there are so many amazing artists that don't get taught how to have confidence and belief in themselves to ask for money. And that's why they're broke.

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: Because they want to sit on if people think I'm good, they'll pay me what. No people won't. They don't know anything. Yeah, you have to ask for it. And, and it hurts me a lot because I see so many talented people who are broke and struggling because that no one's given them the confidence to be like, yo, speak up. Like, you can now make six figures from Instagram. I've seen it from artists, you can put a painting on Instagram and say, everybody, it’s only 1000 but I’m selling for 200. But I've got five of them. Boom. You know what to say. No sales manager, no CRM just you asking and showing good work, but they don’t even want to do that.

Anna: Well, I think it's, to me, it's less about confidence. I mean, this is the same thing. And more about just fear, discomfort. I don't want to put myself out there. It feels uncomfortable. Guess what? It feels uncomfortable for me. It may even feel uncomfortable for you, doesn't seem like it. But like, you know the point is it there isn't this like world of some people are just so comfortable putting themselves out there and others aren't. You gotta go claim your seat. And we live at this glorious time where you don't need a gatekeeper to tell you you're good enough. So go claim your seat.

Jay: Yeah, yeah, who said I always tell people who said that. I play this game with people. Like I'm shy. I'm an introvert. No one wants to hear my story. Who said that? Oh, I did. Yeah, exactly. What else you telling yourself?

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: Yeah, and you're 100% right Anna. It always comes down to one word: fear.

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: It's always fear, fear of judgment, fear, fear of doubt fear of is it going to work for you? Are they gonna make fun of me? I'm like, Yeah, I'm scared all the time, too. So. So what do you want to do about it? Like I'm like, great. So you said, I think when sometimes when you break the, you just tell it how it is that you're scared? Great. Okay, what's next? Ah, well, okay, what are you gonna do about it? Because this, this girl did it. And she's not as pretty as you. And she's not as funny as you. And she's not as well off as you has. So she could do it. I try to relate that a lot. Like if she can do it, if he can do it, please.

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: We live in North America. Please.

Anna: Yeah, yeah. So, so let's say somebody listening says, well, wait a minute, I want to be in Forbes, I want to be in Chicago Journal and all of these things. Can anyone reach out to you? How does that work?

Jay: Yeah. So obviously, like I'm really big on, they can obviously reach out to me that, I'm really big on finding out their why though. Like, what is their expectation of being in Forbes? Now there's the I just want to be in Forbes because I've always wanted to be in Forbes. I've always wanted to be on GMA, because I've always wanted to be on GMA. Or I want to be in People. Yeah. However, here's the reality. If we all just want that, then most of the time, it's not going to happen, because everyone wants those things. Firstly, we need to see what you've done to deserve it. Right? Secondly, okay, if you're not there yet, what is the reason why you want to be here? Oh, you want to be able to position yourself with more authority? Oh, well, that's a different conversation. Let's do that with some smaller publications. Let's do that with maybe a local TV show. Let's do that with getting you a book, like fixing your authority, like let's do that. I'm really finding the why before I, before I just give people the keys, and like, here are all the things you can buy. Like, what, why do you want to do this?

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: That's, I think that's what's been really great. You know, we've got over 100 clients in 10 countries. It's helped because I've been a global, I've had a lot of people around the world. But I think the reason we've grown really quickly is yes, we have these media outlets that most people don't have. We can guarantee some deliverables which people have never heard of, in the PR space. Like they, they hate me for saying stuff like this. I've had emails, like how could, I've had an email subjects like how could you write, like you are disgrace to the industry? I'm like, bring it I'm like, I tell people like I'm the Uber that came the, that's like what it did for taxis. You know, when taxis, when Uber came in, it completely destroyed taxis because it was faster, smarter, better. It cleaned up the problems that taxis faced, it was safer. I'm like, well done Uber. That's what I wanted to do for PR. I wanted to have deliverables. I wanted to have a holistic approach. I wanted to actually go hey, you don't need that. Like just because you want to give me 50 grand, five grand, 13,000. That's, you don't need that. You have an offer problem. So we get you in Forbes, right? You pay me five figures. But you don't even have enough customers to know what's working right now. And I think most people know that giving people the truth. That's what I do. And like you don't need it. Or like you have a lead flow problem. Or like, do you know what you do? They're like, well, I have, what I'm like, if you can't tell me what you do in a sentence like we don't need anything else until we solve that.

Anna: Yeah, yeah. That's like our, our, you know, discover your book in a sentence template. It's like, who is this for? What do they want?

Jay: Yeah.

Anna: That's the easiest way. So okay, but I'm like, looking at what you offer. It's like there are,  somebody can come along and get in LA Weekly, Flaunt, Gracia, Okay, E Online, Life & Style. I mean, it's just…

Jay: Yeah, we have a list of 100 publications. However, most people, if I said to you Anna name, it’s different cause you’re a journalist, name more than 15 publications. You can't. No one really knows more than like the classics. So it's more about, like I think there's different PR bundles, we create like a bundle together. I think you saw that as well. Like we've got like if you’re an entrepreneur. Here's like low tier, medium tier, high tier cost. Hey, that's good stuff. You just start with that.

Anna: Yeah, yeah.

Jay: TV, the same thing. We have TV shows, right? We have, we have podcasts that people can come on. So it really comes down to what is the direction that you want to go down, that you want to actually do? Because a lot of people go, hey, I want to be this, but I don't also want to do social content. Well, then we're not going to give you the social plan. Right? Or, hey, I don't want to really show up on TV. Okay, well, then we won’t wind up doing TV, we’ll do podcasts. Can you do a shot for podcasts? Yeah. So yeah.

Anna: Um, and so, God, I got distracted in you're like, this is just an amazing array of offers here. So does it say sponsored on all of these posts?

Jay: Some, some do. I prefer not to give detail but I'm very clear on like, hey, we can get you in this publication, or we can get you on this television show or get on this podcast. Or whatever strategy we use. This will say this. This is what it would look like as the outcome. And pros and cons. Here's some truth behind what I've done. A lot of the times when television shows or press, they've got it hidden, so it’s discrete. So like, for some shows that I've been on that I’ve paid for, it will say sponsored by Ace of Spades. Well, I don’t put that up on social, do I? I just cut that out.

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: Right? And it doesn't matter. It's like it doesn't concern, no one, no one has gone, hey, can you send me the whole clip? Like they see you, oh, Jay’s on TV. He's the expert. He's got a [inaudible], I probably need to go to him with that panel problem. Right. Right. Right. Asked me stupid questions. And so yeah, I feel like it's just giving people the, you got to, there are some publications that do, some that don't, but most of them that we have, they, it's all real. It's supposed to help you these tools. Anna these are just tools just like a book. It's supposed to help you. It's not supposed to, like that's it. It's just supposed to enhance what you have.

Anna: Yeah, yeah. And does it provide, some of them provide links back to their website, which really can help SEO, but not all of them? I mean, it all depends, right?

Jay: Well, yeah, here's the great thing with digital PR. Obviously, you know, I still love getting a magazine. I was in Forbes and I was in like, I get to hold it. But other than that, it takes too long. Everything's Googleable now. So your name or the keywords, like you're going to find yourself Googleable, and all these, most of the publications have backlinks, you'll at least have your name in it. TV shows will always have your website link. So not only are you getting the media, like you can leverage it but also you're getting free, free, as I call it, like real estate of your name on the internet. And like why Google you Anna. Like, I'm sure that immediately I don't know how long you've been building this for. But it was everywhere. So like, it positions you in my mind? Oh, this is an expert. Like, this is someone that I need to, like, she's, she knows what she's talking about.

Anna: Yeah. And I mean, I came about accidentally because I was shocked when my first book came out. And the Today Show is like, come on and talk about addiction. And I'm like, what? So I, I'm the slowest to wake up to this. I was building this whole thing. And, like you were saying, I was completely broke. I was, I had all the media hits in the world, and nothing to do with that.

Jay: Interesting what, what, what,  well, let me ask you this, because this has been good for your audience. So you had all the attention, likability, show. What was the thing that took you from struggle to success or what is it?

Anna: I had no business!

Jay: So you had no offer?

Anna: Yeah, I thought just being on the Today Show, or Good Morning America, or in these, these publications was enough. I mean, it's almost like what you were talking about before, like the people who just, like led with their ego. I mean, it really, it's like, I thought I should be paid for just being special. Like, when I look back. That's really what I thought.

Jay: We work with so many speakers and the amount of speakers they think their message should be, they should be paid $10,000 plus.

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: You know, and I know you feel that way. Get in line. Because you and a million other people have the same story.

Anna: Yeah.

Jay: Right? And they're not buying it like that. They're not buying a story, they’re buying on the outcome of what happens to the audience.

Anna: Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I'm always pushing people and they'll say, well, I just want to write a book and I'm like, that's awesome. They say I just want to help people and I'm like, do you realize that in addition to helping a whole bunch of people you may never know you helped, because they you never may meet them. you can also help yourself. And, and people can hire you to do what it is you're describing in this book. And I pushed people because I had to be pushed into it. I didn't get it either.

Jay: Oh, I had, I learned that the worst way. I learned like the worst of the worst, you know, struggling, questioning yourself, doubting yourself. Like, you know, nothing crazy. No crazy thoughts, but enough to like, really go this isn't meant for me. I had a good run, like, yeah. And all it takes is one shift, like one shift for you to go, oh, I was led to believe something completely wrong. And you know, I know so many people still haven't been told this enough or want to accept it.

Anna: Yeah. Yeah.

Jay: Many of the people that I meet that just never transition to digital properly. Like, you know, you know, when you see this stuff online, it's like, you're still trying to hold on to like the old you like, get, you need, you need to fight with this, like, you have to. Like you're losing out to someone who's not as good, not as talented, who understands how to work this baby. Yeah, they're getting seen. And you're still struggling, you know.

Anna: Well, this has been fabulous. If people want to find out more about you, where should they go?

Jay: Yeah. Ace of Spades agency, just because I was a magician, right? So And look, even if you're listening to this right now, and you're like, hey, Jay, I just want to get started on something small. I know, I need to get out there. I know, I need to maybe position myself, get more authority, get more credibility, like we can help you at a very small investment, right? Or if you're like, hey, Jay, money's not a huge concern for me, but I want to plan and I'm tired of all this. I've been sold lies, I've been sold over promise, hey, we can give you very strong deliverables. And I'll tell you the truth. And at least you know that, and I know that we'll hit those deliverables, and what happens from there is how you want to, what is they call it dance with the, I call it dance with the devil. How you want to boogie, boogie, boogie with, boogie with the angel.

Anna: Love it. Well, thank you, Jay. So much. And thanks, you guys for listening.

Jay: Absolutely.